An Interactive Guide to the Fourier Transform

(betterexplained.com)

208 points | by pykello 6 days ago

17 comments

  • HPsquared
    28 minutes ago
    I'd never thought about it in this way before but the idea of writing a number as a decimal (or other) string of numerals, bears some resemblance to a Fourier transform.

    Think of the components of a written number: ones, tens, hundreds etc which have a repeating pattern. Digits are inherently periodic. Not too far from periodic basis functions.

    Both involve breaking something down into periodic components, and reversing the process by adding up the components.

  • geokon
    5 hours ago
    On thing that is often overlooked but should be emphasized is that the considered frequencies are fixed values while the phase shifts are continuous values. This creates tons of downstream problems

    If your underlying signal is at frequency that is not a harmonic of the sampling length, then you get "ringing" and it's completely unclear how to deal with it (something something Bessel functions)

    Actually using DFTs is a nightmare ..

    - If I have several dominant frequencies (not multiples of the sampling rate) and I want to know them precisely, it's unclear how I can do that with an FFT

    - If I know the frequency a priori and just want to know the phase shift.. also unclear

    - If I have missing values.. how do i fill the gaps to distort the resulting spectrum as little as possible?

    - If I have samples that are not equally spaced, how am I supposed to deal with that?

    - If my measurements have errors, how do I propagate errors through the FFT to my results?

    So outside of audio where you control the fixed sample rate and the frequencies are all much lower than the sample rate... it's really hard to use. I tried to use it for a research project and while the results looked cool.. I just wasn't able to backup my math in a convincing way (though it's been a few years so I should try again with ChatGPT's hand-holding)

    I recommend people poke around this webpage to get a taste of what a complicated scary monster you're dealing with

    https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/sasp/sasp.html

    • hasley
      3 hours ago
      FFT/DFT is not precise if you do not have the exact harmonic in you signal. If you are also (or only) interested in phases you might use a maximum likelihood estimator (which brings other problems though).

      And as the previous answer said: compressed sensing (or compressive sensing) can help as well for some non-standard cases.

      • geokon
        1 hour ago
        Do you have any good reference for compressed sensing?

        The high level description on wikipedia seems very compelling.. And would you say it'd be a huge task to really grok it?

    • NL807
      4 hours ago
      Somewhat related field, compressive sensing, attempts to answer some of those questions (particularly missing data, uneven sampling and errors) using a L1 minimisation technique.
      • geokon
        1 hour ago
        Can you recommend where to learn more about it? It looks like what I should be looking at.. hopefully not a rabbit hole :))
  • dmd
    11 hours ago
    The absolute best teaching of the Fourier transform I've ever encountered is the extremely bizarre book "Who is Fourier?"

    https://www.amazon.com/Who-Fourier-Mathematical-Transnationa...

  • hasley
    4 hours ago
    I have not read the whole article. But, what is shown at the beginning is not the Fourier Transform, it is the Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT).

    Though the DFT can be implemented efficiently using the Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) algorithm, the DFT is far from being the best estimator for frequencies contained in a signal. Other estimators (like Maximum Likelihood [ML], [Root-]MUSIC, or ESPRIT) are in general far more accurate - at the cost of higher computational effort.

    • roflmaostc
      1 hour ago
      Can you provide more details please?

      The FFT is still easy to use, and it you want a higher frequency resolution (not higher max frequency), you can zero pad your signal and get higher frequency resolution.

    • casparvitch
      3 hours ago
      Not a particularly fair comparison, the DFT is a non-statistical operation.
      • hasley
        2 hours ago
        Why do you think, that it is not fair?

        You can even use these algorithms with a single snapshot (spatial smoothing).

  • freshtake
    11 hours ago
    If you're only interested in the gist of the concept and how it can be applied to compression, without the mathematical rigor, here is my go to: https://bertolami.com/index.php?engine=blog&content=posts&de...
  • arialdomartini
    10 hours ago
    Brilliant!

    I would just suggest the author to replace the sentence “99% of the time, it refers to motion in one dimension” with “most of the time” since this is a mathematical article and there’s no need to use specific numbers when they don’t reflect actual data.

  • vismit2000
    2 hours ago
    This is the best content on this topic - a 2023 video by Reducible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYEMxqreA10
  • kens
    16 hours ago
    If you're dealing with computer graphics, audio, or data analysis, I highly recommend learning Fourier transforms, because they explain a whole lot of things that are otherwise mysterious.
  • devanshp
    9 hours ago
    It's quite interesting that our ears implement a better-than-Fourier-like algorithm internally: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1208.4611
  • analog31
    17 hours ago
    My only quibble is that the article is about the discrete Fourier transform.
    • shash
      14 hours ago
      It’s usually easier to explain the dft. and easier to do a periodic function than a totally arbitrary sequence.
      • krackers
        8 hours ago
        I've actually found the opposite, it's easier to conceptually understand the continuous FT, then analyze the DTFT, DFT, and Fourier Series as special cases of applying a {periodic summation, discrete sampling} operator before the FT.
  • seam_carver
    12 hours ago
    If anyone wants to learn about the 2D DFT, the best explanation I've ever read was the relevant chapter in Digital Image Processing by Nick Efford.

    If anyone wants to see my favorite application of the 2D DFT, I made a video of how the DFT is used to remove rainbows in manga on Kaleido 3 color eink on Kobo Colour:

    https://youtu.be/Dw2HTJCGMhw?si=J6dUYOj2IRX1nPRF

    • brad0
      11 hours ago
      In the video you show a 2D mask to blur diagonal lines. How is that mask applied to the DFT? Is the mask also converted to a DFT and the two signals get combined?
      • seam_carver
        8 hours ago
        Just remove anything under the mask basically, similar to a low pass filter.
  • biophysboy
    13 hours ago
    My favorite application of the Fourier transform is converting convolution into pointwise multiplication. This is used to speed up multiple sequence alignment in bioinformatics.
  • mohas
    3 hours ago
    Will I ever be able to learn the Fourier transform?
    • rkomorn
      3 hours ago
      Yes! Step 1 is forgetting about the name so it doesn't feel as daunting.

      Disclaimer: I've not actually done step 1, but I have more faith in you than in myself.

  • amarant
    5 hours ago
    I've decided math isn't my thing. The first part of the article I couldn't stop thinking "how the hell would you construct a banana filter?" And the entire smoothie metaphor seemed to describe nothing at all.

    Then there was something about circles and why do some people call them some other silly thing?

    So far, so utterly meaningless, as far as I could tell. just seemed like meaningless babble to make even a kindergartner feel comfortable with the article, but it didn't seem to have communicated much of anything, really.

    Then there were circles. Some of them were moving, one of them had a sinus wave next to it and some balls were tracing both in sync, indicating which part of the sinus wave equalled which part of the circle I guess?

    I understood none of it.

    I asked chat gpt to explain to me, i think it has read this article cause it used the smoothie analogy as well. I still don't understand what that analogy is meant to mean.

    Then finally I found this: If someone plays a piano chord, you hear one sound. But that sound is actually made of multiple notes (multiple frequencies).

    The Fourier Transform is the tool that figures out:

    which notes (frequencies) are present, and how loud each one is

    That, finally, makes sense.

  • zkmon
    16 hours ago
    It is more about the duality between the amplitude and frequency spaces and conversion between them. A bit similar to Hadamard gate for transforming a quantum state from computational basis to diagonal basis.
  • kuharich
    17 hours ago
  • constantcrying
    17 hours ago
    >The Fourier Transform is one of deepest insights ever made.

    No, it is not. In fact it is quite a superficial example of a much deeper theory, behind functions, their approximations and their representations.

    • fedsocpuppet
      16 hours ago
      The Fourier transform predates functional analysis by a century. I don't see the point in downplaying its significance just because 'duh it's simply a unitary linear operator on L2'.
      • NewsaHackO
        15 hours ago
        But is it the deepest insights ever made?
        • badlibrarian
          14 hours ago
          The Fourier Transform isn't even Fourier's deepest insight. Unless we're now ranking scientific discoveries based on whether or not they get a post every weekend on HN.

          The FFT is nifty but that's FINO. The Google boys also had a few O(N^2) to O(N log N) moments. Those seemed to move the needle a bit as well.

          But even if we restrict to "things that made Nano Banana Pro possible" Shannon and Turing leapfrog Fourier.

          • lispisok
            12 hours ago
            >Unless we're now ranking scientific discoveries based on whether or not they get a post every weekend on HN.

            Glad I'm not the only one who noticed there is a weekly (or more) post on what Fourier transform is.

            • chemotaxis
              5 hours ago
              It's really getting in the way of all the daily AI opinion pieces I come here to read.

              More seriously, there are tens of thousands of people who come to HN. If Fourier stuff gets upvoted, it's because people find it informative. I happen to know the theory, but I wouldn't gatekeep.